Meeting with Professor of Psychology Jean-Louis Monestès

 

Jean-Louis Monestes

 

The EVE blog had already had the chance a few months ago to meet Jean-Louis Monestès, on the occasion of the broadcast of his podcasts " Sous l'oeil des psys ".

 

A psychotherapist and teacher-researcher specializing in change, he introduced France to ACT therapy. Today, he is a professor at the University of Grenoble, at the head of a new collection entitled " experience of the self " at Armand Colin and at the helm of a new blog dedicated to behavioral and cognitive therapies (he warns that " it's a professional blog, maybe not always very sexy", we found the recent articles he published there on the perceptions of stress or the reasons for impulsivity quite accessible and perfectly captivating).

 

In a perpetual process of innovation, he has just launched an e-training program to allow everyone to " train in psychological flexibility", in other words to get into the habit of " changing perspective " to put themselves " in the shoes of the other ".

Does this mean that empathy is strengthened? We asked him this question (among others).

 

 

EVE the blog: Hello Jean-Louis, you are launching an e-training program called " From his point of view ". How did you come up with this idea?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: It was during my hospital practice that the question of empathy jumped out at me one day... I became aware that in our care for people in suffering, we were very insufficiently taking the step of putting ourselves in the shoes of the other, of trying to understand what they were experiencing, seeing, feeling, believing.

 

I will take a deliberately extreme example of a patient suffering from hallucinations. He is in crisis, the emergency services have been called. That's our point of view. His is that he is quietly talking to Jesus Christ when the firefighters arrive to take him away by force! Imagine another situation, that of a patient who feels persecuted and lives permanently with the conviction that he is being followed. Have you ever put yourself in the shoes of someone for whom it is a reality to be constantly monitored?

 

In short, I had started to build training exercises on the ability to put oneself in the shoes of the other when Sylvie (editor's note: Bernard-Curie), who was co-writing with Christophe Deval You have everything to succeed, suggested that I look at how to transpose this work on empathy to the business world.

 

 

EVE the blog: Obviously, the business world is not routinely confronted with such extreme situations, but indeed, the need for empathy is expressed at the moment with a certain force...

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: Yes, from the moment there are human relationships, there is reason to ask the question of the other's point of view and reason to try to change one's prespective.

 

I started by doing this work myself by having a detailed description of the jobs of the people to whom a program designed to develop empathy at work would be addressed. I tried to identify their reality, their interests and their constraints, to integrate them into my approach.

 

 

EVE le blog: What is this approach aimed at?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: To increase the ability to take the other's point of view into consideration. So, it supposes, to begin with, defining empathy. Intuitively, it is related to compassion, in other words the sharing of a negative emotion.

 

My definition of empathy is stripped of the positive or negative value of emotion or perception: empathy is only the ability to adopt the perspective of the other.

 

 

EVE the blog: Empathy can be measured?

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: You can evaluate it as a form of dexterity, with very simple exercises: for example, I'm in Lyon and I'm holding a red brick, you're in Paris, you're holding a green brick, we're both asked the question " if you were the other and the other was you, Where would you be? What would he hold? Then, we complicate the exercises a little by reversing all the elements of the statement and asking questions like " If you were the other and the other was you, and Paris was Lyon and Lyon was Paris, where would you be?" »

 

The accuracy of the answers to such exercises makes it possible to assess the ability to change one's perspective and adopt the other's perspective.

 

 

EVE the blog: But does this agility guarantee an increased quality of relationship with others?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: Not at all! We meet great manipulators who excel in the ability to adopt the other person's point of view (laughs).

 

Good intentions can never be guaranteed. You are probably familiar with Joule and Beauvois' bestseller, Petit traité de manipulation à l'usage des honest gens? This book explains well how we can use manipulation methods to help the other person (to quit smoking for example). Well, the opposite is also possible: one can use something very laudable (the willingness to put oneself in the other's shoes) to serve ugly purposes.

 

 

EVE le blog: But all the same, without wanting to " moralize " the approach at all costs, it seems important to make sure that it pursues positive objectives?

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: I believe that we must agree on the objectives and not on the intentions.

 

The objectives are to make communication more fluid, avoid misunderstandings, take the lead in delicate situations, find and cultivate common ground... In short, to develop interpersonal skills and new behaviors.

 

 

EVE the blog: Okay. We are on top of these objectives. Then, how do we develop these interpersonal skills?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: Well, we practice. To begin with, it's like in sport, you become aware of yourself and your environment.

 

• Step 1: there is me, there is the other. And the other exists, he is entirely part of the relationship and will modify it.
• Step 2: like me, the other person has different states of mind, mental states, from mine even if he is going through exactly the same situation.
• Step 3: I detach myself from my own mental states to make room for his...

 

 

EVE the blog: I think that in principle, everyone will agree on this.

But on the condition that everyone plays the game...

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: Wanting reciprocity is a sign of a bit of excessive trust in human beings (laughs). It is also a step away from the empathetic approach by seeking to impose one's own expectation of the relationship as a prerequisite for any consideration of the other's point of view.

 

But above all, reciprocity is not what we are looking for in this approach: empathy does not aim to obtain empathy in return, it allows us to gather information about the other, to sample the relationship.

 

 

EVE the blog: Okay, so once I " get it" the other person's point of view, what do I do?

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: I start by telling him. We underestimate the power of a sentence that begins with " I understand that you..."   (disagree, angry, sad, disappointed etc.) when she is sincere.

 

To express one's understanding is already to begin to go on a ground of compromise.

 

 

EVE the blog: It's not to look for the little beast, but don't you think that there are also completely closed personalities who don't even care if we understand them?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: There are ! The most difficult thing in this case is to get closer to what the other person is when he can, sometimes rightly, put us off (if he is racist, for example). Here, the fear is that by frequenting the odious, we will feel like we are " polluted".  It must be remembered that understanding does not mean adhering to it.

 

We are not going to negotiate our values, we are not in a strategy of seduction either, we are obliged to deal with this other person that we sometimes don't like.

 

There are a lot of professions that are confronted with this: doctors, accountants, shopkeepers, for example, are sometimes led to " do business " with unpleasant people. And to carry out their mission, they are obliged to gather information about this individual who mostly inspires negative feelings in them and may not even put the good will into creating the relationship. Yet, sometimes it's vital to create that relationship, even if it's tenuous and temporary. And for this, you must have collected a minimum of information that will at least allow you to make a proposal. I continue with the example of the doctor faced with someone who does not cooperate, the proposition is " it seems to me that you are in pain in this place..."  »

 

 

EVE the blog: " It seems to me that..." ", it leaves a certain margin of error...

 

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: Making a mistake is not so serious. It already allows the other person to clarify his point of view and to realize that you care. Whoever said nothing already says " no ", it's a start!

 

The proposal, even if imprecise or erroneous, is a springboard for the relationship : I come with questions that are addressed to you, I am interested, just tell me if what I am telling you about my perception of you corresponds a little, a lot or not at all to what you would like to express, to what you feel...

 

 

EVE the blog: We talked about doctors, accountants, shopkeepers, in short, all those who do not " choose" their interlocutors or hardly choose. Is an e-training program such as yours suitable for all trades, in all sectors?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: I think that " From his point of view " as a program for developing the ability to understand others is aimed at anyone who is brought to meet and associate with other humans (laughs)!

 

And it seems to me that this skill is becoming even more crucial in an era of dematerialization of exchanges, when we multiply the opportunities and places of contact with others (especially on the Internet) with all the phenomena of loss of information, risks of misunderstandings, unfortunate shortcuts that we observe. Any slightly animated discussion on a Facebook profile gives a striking demonstration of our ability to communicate more and more while sometimes understanding each other less and less!

 

Our time is also one of multiplied and diversified encounters : we must realize that we all know many more people than was the case for our grandparents! And much more different people, who have cultures, visions, values that are less immediately familiar to us.

 

 

EVE le blog: Would you go so far as to say that the " in-betweens", the place par excellence of the rules understood and accepted by each member, are in the process of unravelling?

 

Jean-Louis Monestès: In my opinion, the " self-contained " are tested by two opposing dynamics: on the one hand, they are getting tighter, sometimes leading to conservative withdrawal... But on the other hand, yes, we can see that under the effect of the multiple influences to which each individual is subject and the more numerous and diverse affiliations that we choose for ourselves, group landmarks are blurred, codes are shifted, the other becomes more unexpected even in spheres where in the past we knew (or thought of) ourselves between people having by definition the same tastes, the same ideas, the same convictions...

 

So, indeed, even with one's own, loved ones, those " in one's camp", one must today have the reflex to put oneself in the place of the other.