“We grow old when we stop asking questions and lose our curiosity,” an interview with Anne Thevenet-Abitbol & Charlotte Darsy
To prolong the EVE Program’s 15th anniversary celebrations, our “Practice” section continues to shine a light on people who are redefining the conventions of leadership.
This month, we meet with Anne Thevenet-Abitbol, founder of the EVE Program who, along with Charlotte Darsy, Healthy Aging Director at Danone, created the “NOLD” (Never Old) movement. Enjoy the following conversation, in which age stops being a hindrance, but a driver of innovation and inspiration
Has sisterhood evolved in recent years?
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: I remember when I was invited to the first Women’s Forum in 2005. I met some older women in very senior positions. Admittedly, at the time I didn’t find any role models among them. They were a generation of women who had sacrificed a lot to earn their success, and there was no sense of sisterhood with younger women. The main message was: “Why should it be easier for them than it was for me? I’m not going to help them out.”
Things are radically different now, with more sisterhood and role models. Véronique Penchienati-Bosetta, Deputy CEO at Danone, is often praised for her authenticity, whereas the previous generation thought that you had to behave like a man in order to be credible. Thankfully, things are different now.
Do you think someone can be a role model at any age?
Charlotte Darsy: I believe that a role model is someone whose attitude and behavior shows others that you can achieve great things. And that comes by being your authentic self. It’s when you don’t follow an established path. I think the more you express your true self, the better you feel and the more you will want to help the next person. Age, therefore, depends more on being yourself than it does on how much experience you’ve accumulated.
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: I would add that, as its name suggests, a role model is someone who makes you want to be like them. But I have a more emotional relationship with people; I need to like them as well as admire them. And that takes professional skill, but most importantly human qualities! So I completely agree with Charlotte, age doesn’t matter. Having said that, you need to be grounded enough in yourself to feel able to develop those human qualities and inspire others.
What makes a woman inspiring at 20, 40, or 70 years old?
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: The twenty-something women who inspire me are enthusiastic, hardworking, and curious; they look at things in a positive light. They are engaging leaders! These women are unafraid of ceding some of their ground, or being dislike for speaking their mind.
Charlotte Darsy: There isn’t much difference between 40 and 70, because it’s mostly about state of mind. When you really want to do something, you inspire that feeling in others. At 70, it’s important to watch out for the feeling that you have done it all before, that things were better before, or that you are too old to take effective action.
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: Yes, it’s important to stay as curious as you were in your 20s. When you no longer question anything, or when you stop being curious, that’s when you get old. As long as you’re interested, you’re interesting. As long as your enthusiastic, you’re engaging!
What do you do to fight against age-related stereotypes?
Charlotte Darsy: You start by doing what feels right, regardless of how old you are, and that’s the message we endeavor to share in our Nold community. We don’t want to hear anyone saying “I’m too old” or “I’m not old enough” to do something. If you have an ambition, if you want to learn a new language or go back to school, age should never be a barrier.
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: We also try to help women with the two-edged sword of sacrifice. Women have often “lost out” during their careers when they have had children, and getting older can be seen as more of a struggle for women than it is for men. That’s where Nold comes in. The goal is to identify a third phase in life, a flexible time, a transition during which we are neither young nor old. Having the name “Nold – Never Old” is a real energy-booster. It’s a chance to use a name you’ve chosen, rather than one that has been given to you by default. We have created an identity for that invisible generation, the gap between young and old.
Breaking down clichés means making people realize that they are not victims, they are in fact part of the solution. If you’re enjoying yourself, you’re productive and enthusiastic. It’s all about attitude, state of mind, not age.
We hear a lot about longevity: in concrete terms, what does it mean and what should businesses do about it?
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: Longevity is about planning for the future. We often talk about “aging well”, but longevity means enabling all employees, from the youngest to the oldest, to keep working for their company. It’s very reassuring for a young person to see that a company takes care of its “older” employees, so they know they can grow old with that company too.
Charlotte Darsy: Yes, and we no longer just want to live long lives, we want to live healthy lives. It’s the same in companies, the idea is not to last as long as possible, but to be fulfilled in your role and contribution. We don’t want to be seen as “aging” or “decrepit”; we want to stay in shape and have a positive attitude, until the moment we decide to leave. But we still have stereotypes to shatter. People often believe that seniors over 45 are just there to pass their experience down to younger generations. They’re not! They still want to contribute and create. If you live to 100, you cannot be considered a senior citizen unable to do anything meaningful after the age of 45.
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: Longevity is about adding life to your years, not just years to your life. If you’re bringing life to your work, there is no reason to be sidelined. Passing on knowledge is great, but staying productive at the same time is just as wonderful. The role of companies is to send signals of recognition and to continue training people, to engage them in projects designed to transform and adapt to a changing world (this is partly the role of the Octave Program). These signs show that the company still has faith in you.
What would you say to a woman who feels “too old” to start something new, to change, to dare?
Charlotte Darsy: From a certain age, I think there’s an advantage because we have shaken off some of our limitations. The children are older, there are fewer demands at home. It might just be the right time to ask questions and dive in.
Anne Thevenet-Abitbol: I would also want to ask the woman if she feels that her company is judging her as too old, or if she’s doing it herself? We often put a glass ceiling over our own heads, even though the company has never said anything. We need to disentangle what comes from inside and what comes from the company. If you feel too old because you’re tired, that’s fine. But in that case, organize your life differently. The idea is stay curious about yourself and keep on learning. We have much more control over our careers than we think, as long as we take some time to think and try to understand the emotions that are really unmet needs.
